tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post546169346776349922..comments2023-04-15T03:58:45.461-07:00Comments on It's a Really Long Way Down: Could I have your attention, please?verylargecolthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18035418539530230889noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-80670591198840303302008-06-27T02:38:00.000-07:002008-06-27T02:38:00.000-07:00VLC said..."Actually, I've posted before that he w...VLC said...<BR/><BR/>"Actually, I've posted before that he was fine as a weanling (by the way, "horse," singular. I have no other young horses). He was handled constantly and picked up his feet fine. He got bratty about it over the winter - I assume this is related to rapid growth and having more trouble balancing due to his size. He is over 15 hands at 15 months so he has grown quickly. His brattiness has not been due to a lack of handling, it is simply a phase he seems to be going through, and I am paying someone to resolve it because I have a bad back. Make sense?"<BR/><BR/>We have seen this in one of our stallions, had nothing to do with pain or growing fast, it had to do with gaining testosterone levels and being bratty to test us. After it happened several times, it was roundpen ground work time using foot placement techniques and walking the horse one foot at a time (along with other work to keep it fresh and not boring). This was done daily. The guy who also holds for our blacksmith came out and did roundpen work with him too to set their relationship. <BR/><BR/>We did the same with a mare that came to us raw from Canada at the age of 4 years, no foot training and was sensitive, took about 3-4 months of work like this to get her sorted out, but was perfect afterwards.<BR/><BR/>The stallion still tries to act up sometimes, just to prove he can, then we go back out and do the same routine again.austriancurlshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03015633298952678666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-74086015732042216652008-06-27T02:17:00.000-07:002008-06-27T02:17:00.000-07:00horsesense102 said... --No offense to other reader...horsesense102 said... <BR/>--<BR/><BR/>No offense to other readers and supporters of FUGS other blog, but I fully agree with horsesense102. It is the problem I have with this blog. Everything that is said here points exactly to what horsense102 has analysed and given a critique on. FUGS has riding issues, is not using a professional trainer as support to work out problems or guide the process. Horsesense102's accessment is dead on, FUGS does not have the experience or the confidence. And, rockerchick1343, defending FUGS when it is plaint to see what's happening here doesn't help her or that stallion.<BR/><BR/>My 2 cents worth. I thought the topic interesting, so I started reading it and really like mugwump's assessment in handle stallions. I would like to hear more, I just have problems with this blog because I cannot stand to read how an person inexperienced with stallions and lacking the confidence necessary, is trying to train one from scratch.austriancurlshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03015633298952678666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-47573814188851382762008-06-26T19:14:00.000-07:002008-06-26T19:14:00.000-07:00New Reader here. Just found your blog last night....New Reader here. Just found your blog last night. And I must say that both my husband and I enjoy your writing style. Next, I'm very glad to not be the only chickenshit re-rider out there. I'm 32 and haven't rode in 13 yrs. <BR/><BR/>Sorry I'm late to this topic, but having worked in show/breeding barns and also been an obedience trainer for dogs, I sometimes look at problems with both species a little different. <BR/><BR/>You don't want VLC to pay attention to the mares in the ring or unless you give the ok... So, ask yourself this, what is it you DO want him to do? Is there an alternative behavior you can train him to do when he notices the pretty girls? With a dog, I'd probably condition a "watch me" for a distractor. Find the horsey equivalent. Maybe quickly refocusing on you (with a reward for doing so)? The idea being to over time fade the command when said pretty girl is present and then eventually fade the reinforcer. <BR/><BR/>Hey, what do I know? Traditional training methods for teaching a horse to lower their head didn't work with my Very Tall Half-Arab. I inadvertently taught him what we like to call his "stupid trick". He learned to put his head down whenever I say "Give Momma love", which in time made haltering him easier. Before, he'd put his giraffe-like neck up so I, at 5'8", couldn't reach him. Haltering became less adversive and associated with forehead scritches.ORSunshinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07212211388313548187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-35492587631150202822008-06-26T17:50:00.000-07:002008-06-26T17:50:00.000-07:00Just from what you've described, I would bet that ...Just from what you've described, I would bet that you'll be able to gradually reduce the volume of the verbal correction until it's unnoticeable. Remember that horses have VERY good hearing -- an almost inaudible growl is all you need.<BR/><BR/>Using a special halter or other signal for when he is allowed to be a stallion is *imperative*. NEVER take him to tease or cover without it, and NEVER ask him to be Mr Faux Gelding with it. <BR/><BR/>I have always used the chain over the nose as a signal for boy behavior and it has worked like a charm. My old stallion would actually put his head in the halter, then jiggle his nose to try to feel the chain. If it wasn't there, he'd give this HUGE sigh, and go about our business ignoring even the most seductive "Hello Sailor" behavior.<BR/><BR/>You have a sensitive horse, so you'll be able to use minimal signals to keep it in his jeans. :)AlphaMarehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00915807320378243847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-26475103930923521132008-06-25T10:16:00.000-07:002008-06-25T10:16:00.000-07:00Is holding a bitey horse's ear abusive?Is *biting*...Is holding a bitey horse's ear abusive?<BR/><BR/>Is *biting* a horse's ear abusive?<BR/><BR/>Is smacking a bitey horse on the nose abusive?<BR/><BR/>Is punching a bitey horse on the nose abusive?<BR/><BR/>Is a lip chain abusive?<BR/><BR/>Is a lip twitch abusive<BR/> a) as restraint during a vet procedure?<BR/> b) during breeding or training?<BR/> c) as punishment?<BR/><BR/>Is thumping/kicking a horse in the belly abusive<BR/> a) after he cowkicks at you?<BR/> b) while he stands with a puffed-out belly during girthing?<BR/> c) after he throws you from the saddle?<BR/> d) after he attacks a student or weaker horse?<BR/><BR/>Is restraining a horse by the leadrope and tail abusive?<BR/><BR/>Is smacking a horse on the shoulder abusive?<BR/><BR/>Is punching a horse on the shoulder abusive?<BR/><BR/>Is it abusive to use a whip on the rump?<BR/> a) a quirt?<BR/> b) a crop?<BR/> c) a dressage whip?<BR/> d) a rein-end?<BR/> e) a longe whip?<BR/> f) a bull whip?<BR/><BR/>Is it abusive to use a whip on the shoulder?<BR/><BR/>Is it abusive to smack a horse on the poll?<BR/><BR/>Is it abusive to use a whip or rope-end near the genitals of a stallion?<BR/><BR/>Is it abusive to longe a horse just because you're angry with it?<BR/><BR/>Is it abusive to leave a horse tied all day? [other than a pregnant mare or in inclement weather]<BR/><BR/>I've seen most of these things done. I've done some of them myself, including biting two or three disrespectful horses on the ear. I don't like to haul off and kick a horse in the belly, but I do give a hard smack on the shoulder when a horse kicks. I don't bother using a crop on my TWH mare's rump, but use it on her shoulder and fan it next to her neck when she does the dreaded head-turned-in shoulder-popped-out sidepass at the trot and canter. There are some things I just won't do, but I think that context matters. I think it's necessary to hit a horse when it kicks or bites, but abusive to hit it out of frustration, anger, or pain. Mostly I use the "make myself look big and roar" maneuver but it is sometimes necessary to use force. I'm a bleeding-heart lifelong veggie with a small menagerie of animals, but I've seen horrified reactions from a few teenage horseowners at my horse correction methods.<BR/> <BR/>Maybe you could open a topic on the Fugly site proper?<BR/><BR/>On the hormone/behavior subject, a friend told me over the weekend that she prefers to own mares because when they act up you can always blame it on hormones but with a gelding you have to admit your horse just isn't well-behaved. I tell my girls "focus on me" when their attention wanders, and don't give them too much leeway to act mareish. They don't care at all about stallions, but they do present their hindquarters to certain geldings. Apparently they can't tell the difference?ZebraNeighborhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05612269777933980682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-47572769206126221112008-06-24T10:51:00.000-07:002008-06-24T10:51:00.000-07:00Robyn- I was close in my spelling though right? LO...Robyn- I was close in my spelling though right? LOL! And had the right general area... Oy!<BR/><BR/>See even I get corrected too. No biggie, but just like stated by others, we all stand to learn and benefit. From our learning, our horses benefit.<BR/><BR/>How can that be bad?<BR/><BR/>Horsesense, may not have com across as intended or maybe that IS how it was intended, but we all can take something from what was stated and learn from there- flames or sparks.Cut-N-Jumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03603347619547454296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-1800036137540919042008-06-24T08:06:00.000-07:002008-06-24T08:06:00.000-07:00Loins, tigers, and bears, Oh my!Loins, tigers, and bears, Oh my!Sagebrusheqhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05490175290841527388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-32756181049002268902008-06-24T05:30:00.000-07:002008-06-24T05:30:00.000-07:00mugwump I agree -- there is much to be learned fro...mugwump I agree -- there is much to be learned from other people, even if you don't agree on all the theory. The big black basket case mare had me consulting 3 or 4 other trainers -- there is always something to be learned, always always.ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01762077847614621317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-59204289102890216622008-06-23T22:55:00.000-07:002008-06-23T22:55:00.000-07:00Really interesting discussion, as I know absolutel...Really interesting discussion, as I know absolutely nothing about stallion handling.<BR/> FYI, the lining of the abdominal cavity is the peritoneum. The perineum is the genital area.robynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01001532366083423219noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-17532992175835181232008-06-23T22:35:00.000-07:002008-06-23T22:35:00.000-07:00Edited for word use and spellingconsciences = Cons...Edited for word use and spelling<BR/><BR/>consciences = Consequences<BR/>sorrySOSHorseshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04060612555090353297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-26397529087818001952008-06-23T22:29:00.000-07:002008-06-23T22:29:00.000-07:00I spend my life questioning my training methods. I...I spend my life questioning my training methods. I agonize every day over doing the right thing. I will go to a cohort (or a rival) in a heart beat for input on a training problem.<BR/>I second guess myself continually.This helps my training, not hinders it.<BR/>I consider myself a fair hand. I look to this blog as a great source of information, and fun.I hope I'm never afraid to ask a question because somebody might slam me like I read here tonight.<BR/>Rein it in a bit horsesnse102.mugwumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00319060800328355056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-7961316616625693312008-06-23T20:43:00.000-07:002008-06-23T20:43:00.000-07:00Intimidation is a relative term. Each person has ...Intimidation is a relative term. Each person has a different opinion of what constitutes intimidation. My mare whom I raised from a weanling, understands where her boundaries are. When she is pushing her boundaries, a look from me can sit her straight. From a distance, the tone of my voice gets her attention. This is not to say that she will respond to anyone else this way. I will admit there was a fair amount of intimidation involved over the years to bring her behavior where I wanted it to be. <BR/><BR/>When she was being taught to park for halter, yes, she is a walking horse, she learned quickly “if I don’t keep my feet where she puts them she is going to get my legs and make me go backwards”. I would for no more than a few seconds get her cannon’s with the crop and then we would start over. When she got it right, she got to quit and was praised, and received a treat of a peppermint. Which I believe if she could she would stand on her head for. Was the leg spanking intimidation? Hell Yes it was! Do any of you have children? Have you ever leaned down and said, “If you don’t quit I am going to spank you” or “take away your privileges”. Is that intimidation? YES! <BR/><BR/>A horse must understand consciences for their actions just as human children do. There is a time and place for every kind of behavior and stallions must learn this more than anything. I think that Cathy ask for others opinion is FAN-FREAKING-TASTIC! I can’t tell you how many times someone else had a better idea than I had. Keep up the good work! None of us are perfect, and we all have our strong points. <BR/><BR/>Oh, BTW, I have 7 horses, have trained lots, and have rehabbed several, BUT I still have one that won’t stand still for mounting. So does that mean I am not a good trainer? If it does FINE; but to make up for it I have a horse that will pick up the foot the farrier was working on when he hears the said farrier lay down his hammer and take a step. 50% of a horses training comes from the horses personality.SOSHorseshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04060612555090353297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-43185481645648445312008-06-23T17:37:00.000-07:002008-06-23T17:37:00.000-07:00sorry, but I felt I had to add about that mare tha...sorry, but I felt I had to add about that mare that she had a full chiro workup, massage therapy, and every physical source of her tension was addressed as my first line of approach. The intensity of her reactions made me think "pain" but in her case the pain was emotional.<BR/><BR/> Probably the best descriptor for her was "claustrophobic" -- both physically and emotionally.ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01762077847614621317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-90424786383719215492008-06-23T17:32:00.000-07:002008-06-23T17:32:00.000-07:00The only horse I ever had in for training that I g...The only horse I ever had in for training that I gave up on was one that was set to "blow" - she had had a wreck with her head tied around in a round pen by a "hall of fame" WP trainer -- and it blew her mind. She flunked out of his program (blemished from the wreck, hence unsuitable for the A circuit), went through a series of beat-em-up B-list trainers, and ended up in the low-ball dump sale -- bought by a complete novice, with predictable results, which is how she came to me. <BR/><BR/>We had it out big time ONCE on the ground -- she was earnestly trying to kill me, and I had to see it through. Several intense hours later, she gave it up -- I'd meet her aggression head on, and stop immediately when she did - just one tick higher on the energy scale than what she threw at me, and stop one hemi-second after she backed down. <BR/><BR/>After that she trusted me, and tried so hard to work for me, but I could only have her in regular work for a few weeks at a time -- the tension would build and build and build, and if I had pushed her at that point she would have blown. So out to pasture with her for a week or so to decompress, and we'd begin again. As it ended, I bought her, and gave her away as a broodmare to someone who understood her needs. Quite a comedown from a $15K price tag as a two year old. She did NOT have temperament problems that would have rendered her unsuitable for breeding -- in her "real self" she was quite sweet, but she had just had her mind wrecked by poor training. You could tell she didn't really want to be a basket case, but the fear and tension just overrode her personality if she felt too pressured.<BR/><BR/>It's so important to know your horse (and be able to read horses in general, if you wish to train them) -- to know when he's getting to the "blow" point, or IF he will, to look for every possible exit ramp to give him an alternative to blowing, but also to know when you have to stand fast for his sake and yours. <BR/><BR/>It's easy to be wrong, and it's easy to get your emotions/ego in it, but both mistakes can be literally fatal.ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01762077847614621317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-5933830360387375782008-06-23T17:02:00.000-07:002008-06-23T17:02:00.000-07:00My philosophy with my horny gelding (he didn't get...My philosophy with my horny gelding (he didn't get the nickname the "Big Black Stud" for nothing) is same - "your job right now is to focus on me, not that mare in heat at the end of the arena." He is learning. We do figures, transitions, half-halts, anything to keep him busy and emphasize the message that it's all about business when we're riding.<BR/><BR/>He wasn't gelded until he was five and he can be mouthy (although he doesn't bite, he's orally fixated on the reins, the lead rope, the cross ties, whatever he can put in his mouth) and pushy. I use the least amount of reprimand I think is appropriate, starting with a sharp "cut it out." I've found he does read my body language well. If I push my shoulders up and out while giving him the evil eye, it reinforces the message.<BR/><BR/>I am willing to elevate it to a more physical level if necessary. It's how a mare disciplines her foal - or watch the smarty pants new guy in the group. When he starts getting cocky, one of the lead horses in group is sure to put him in line with a nicely timed kick or nip.slwtwisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06648310370739026318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-47012142328352154872008-06-23T17:01:00.000-07:002008-06-23T17:01:00.000-07:00Ellen- Good points all of them.While we don't advo...Ellen- Good points all of them.<BR/><BR/>While we don't advocate breeding while alone sometimes it has to be done. We try to have someone around in case it all goes south. You just never know when and it's no less likely to happen than getting dumped while riding. We have all hit the ground, unwillingly on our part, at some time while riding. <BR/><BR/>I have not tried teaching a stallion to collect with four on the floor, but ended up doing just that once when the satllion was misbehaving, mounted the dummy from the side and fell off the front. (RA Malibu) The AV was already on him and followed him down. We collected him with all four on the ground.<BR/><BR/>If you are going the collection and AI route, the vet should be on hand to help at the very least and may have a tech with them who can assist.<BR/><BR/>We don't go the special halter for breeding route or the stud chain, etc. Even with the special halter, they should still behave, but some will try to use it as an excuse. We never give them the option. <BR/><BR/><BR/>4 & Holding- We have never had a horse in training with us 'blow', but I have seen many headed that direction. They can be scary to be around and dangerous to handle. They require more focused attention when handling than anything. You never really know what will set them off or how big of an explosion it will be. Even if they blow, it could be a minor warning of what is to come if things don't drasticly change in a damn hurry.<BR/><BR/>I am not a 'no spanking' type person either. The punishment has to fit the crime, but as you stated, use as much as needed and quit. No more, no less and it also HAS to be immediate.<BR/><BR/>I think we agree on this. Yes?<BR/><BR/>Some behaviors stem from pain others from fear and then there is agression. Knowing what the root of the problem is helps us all avoid getting to the 'blow point' for each horse. Fixing the problem at the root can take a lot of the wind out of the sail of a horse at or near the 'blow point'.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Guess I gotta finish this from home...Cut-N-Jumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03603347619547454296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-70293573366394507512008-06-23T16:32:00.000-07:002008-06-23T16:32:00.000-07:00vlc- >>My question here would be, what constitutes...vlc- <BR/>>>My question here would be, what constitutes an intimidation tactic. When a crabby old broodmare snarls at me and I step at her and growl, isn't that an intimidation tactic? Let me tell you, it works.<BR/><BR/>At the risk of sounding like Pat Parelli, I do believe the horse needs to know you are the alpha in the herd...I just don't think Pat's tactics make that happen.<BR/><BR/>What is unacceptable intimidation? (This is almost a new topic)<<<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>This IS worthy of a new and entire topic!<BR/><BR/>Unacceptable Intimidation Tactics hence forth UIT's come in many many forms.<BR/><BR/>Think about how other people try to intimidate us with words, body position, etc. Horses do the same to each other in the herd. Flick of an ear, swish of the tail, lifting a hoof, stopming a foot, baring the teeth, wrinkling the lips, as much or as little as needed. Sometimes it is all a bluff- other times it is not. <BR/><BR/>Knowing a horse as an individual and knowing their body language helps us all deal with knowing when they are 'full of it' and when we are about to get nailed good.<BR/><BR/>Poking at a horse, touching their ticklish spots and doing things you know irritates them, just to do them for sake of irritating is definately unacceptable intimidation. <BR/><BR/>Using an umbrella to stop a charging horse is one thing, but to do it repeatedly and now chase the horse is certainly UIT. Do it when needed, as needed and leave it alone. It's what they do in the herd- fix it and forget it.<BR/><BR/>Keep poking and poking, harrassing and annoying and pushing the horse. The horse will get tired of it and try something else. The severity of what is tried will escalate.<BR/><BR/>UIT's can come in the form of spurs and larger bits. Show horses often enter the ring looking defeated. Often they have had their mouth yanked and jerked on for slowness and an artificial headset, then spurred forward. They move unnaturally and look misreable forced into a 'frame and way of going' that may be uncomfortable at the beginning and more and more painful as it continues.<BR/><BR/>They get to the point where a bigger bit or jabbing with the spurs becomes the norm when the last thing stops working. All hallmarks for a horse becoming more and more unhappy in their work. <BR/><BR/>When it goes to hell it will be ugly and most likely someone will get hurt. Ultimately the horse will be blamed and ruled unmanagable or difficult- when actually they have had enough bullshit. Time off and a change of ownership, scenery and pace can do wonders for some, but for others they may never be safe for anyone to handle.<BR/><BR/>For some horses it is merely hanging on their face or the reins. When they do what is asked, there is no release/reward. They stiffen, grab the bit, hang on the bit- your hands, often labor on the forehand and in essence fall apart. <BR/><BR/>Some will race off out of control and no amount of pulling on the reins in a 'dead mouth' will do you any good. Often a horse who has run off once will learn this will scare the hell out of a good number of people and do it with others. Been down this road, it isn't fun and fixing it sucks.Cut-N-Jumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03603347619547454296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-62423285483965892512008-06-23T15:55:00.000-07:002008-06-23T15:55:00.000-07:00redsmom- we encourage our horses to play. This wa...redsmom- we encourage our horses to play. This way they learn they can express their emotions. <BR/><BR/>My Arab mare has learned a new 'trick'. When I approach the stall put my hands over the top rail and say come here, she walks up all pissy faced, ears pinned and slams her side into the rails. <BR/><BR/>This might be intimidating for some folks, but she wants her back scratched and will 'adjust' her position to get the spots needed. She makes the doofiest of faces while I scratch her back, flanks chest, neck under the mane... usually ended by a swat on the butt and "Off you go!" and she does. Circles the stall and tries to come back for more. Dork!<BR/><BR/>A lot of times a horse in a boarding situation is viewed like a machine. I show up, you are taken out and worked with little or no emotion and put back until next time.<BR/><BR/>A good number of these horses seem dull, lifeless and care less about people. Why should they? Their 'people' don't care about them.<BR/><BR/>They need a reason to 'live' and someone to care about them. A treat, a scratch, something, usually little things to 'break the ice' are a start to getting them to open up and turn on what has long ago 'shut down'.<BR/><BR/>I had one horse under my care at BNF back in the day. He cribbed was barn sour, arena sour and a miserable SOB. Nobody wanted to deal with him. Can we all imagine why?<BR/><BR/>He had been shown as an English Pleasure horse, WP, and also carriage driving. When something didin't work they tried something else... They never bothered to be his friend, he was a show horse as a means to bring home ribbons and promote the name.<BR/><BR/>When I got him, nobody was riding him. I was the new groom and got the 'bottom of the barrel' horses.<BR/>I talked to him, scratched on him, rubbed his itchy spots and treated him like the rest of my charges---> Goofy! He whould nicker whenever I came into the barn and called his name. <BR/><BR/>RIP AA Firm Resolve.<BR/><BR/>Within 2 months his attitude had changed and they started riding him again. He was a different horse. Gone was the pinned ears, wringing tail and pissytude. His full brother was my all time favorite horse, ever.<BR/><BR/>Bringing out a horses personality and training them for something they enjoy changes their attitude and their outlook as well as reduces their stress levels. It also makes training and learning FUN for them as well as easier on them and us. <BR/><BR/>Think about your dreaded subjects in school. Which ones were made easier by a teacher with a different tactic? For me it was history. <BR/><BR/>I had a teacher in HS that I could follow and grasp the concept. Any other teacher I would have failed miserably. I still cannot stand the subject some several years later, but remember he taught it from a different approach.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes it takes a different approach. That's all. Recognizing that and figuring out the right approach is the hard part for many of us. <BR/><BR/>Myself included!Cut-N-Jumphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03603347619547454296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-43607246208567924502008-06-23T15:49:00.000-07:002008-06-23T15:49:00.000-07:006. He may not bite now but wait until he is a matu...<I>6. He may not bite now but wait until he is a mature stallion that one day is sick of all your growling, kicking, slapping, kicking in the belly routine. This intimidating behavior to get a horse to submit may work for you with mares and geldings. But one of these days you'll have 1200 lbs of pissed off, testosterone charged stallion that realizes you are nothing but a bothersome gnat and he'll take you out good when you are least expecting it.<BR/><BR/>6) All horses will get tired of any intimidation tactics and BLOW someday. Some horses internalize their feelings and this may come in the form of a major impaction colic resulting in surgery. Stallions tend to 'pout' when corrected. It can build and build until they blow. It will be ugly when they do.</I><BR/><BR/><B>I think that these statements are true with qualifications. Yes, if the ONLY way a horse is ever reprimanded is by intimidation, then you stand the chance of them 'blowing' one day.<BR/><BR/>I have no problem smacking a horse if they need it. I've punched them in the neck or chest before. I've thrown buckets at the kicking end of a pastured horse who didn't care that I was there. I've thrown halters at horses who've swung their butts toward me.<BR/>But I don't do it often. I don't HAVE to do it often. They learn, and for the most part, they quit any naughty behavior by a vocal "Quuuuiiiiit!".<BR/><BR/>You use as much 'pressure' as you need. You strive to make the 'pressure' as light as possible.<BR/>Discipline by an experienced, intelligent horseowner is considered fair by the horse and won't end up with the horse 'blowing'.</B>4HorsesandHoldinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11863986811361267163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-91241614254935462162008-06-23T15:39:00.000-07:002008-06-23T15:39:00.000-07:00I'm not, by the way, a "no-spank" person -- have f...I'm not, by the way, a "no-spank" person -- have felt quite justified in blasting one from time to time, I usually use the "swatter" tail of a lead rope, but it's mainly a last-ditch attention getter so that I can THEN proceed to fix the problem -- the swat in and of itself doesn't really fix much.ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01762077847614621317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-34847594119186009432008-06-23T15:33:00.000-07:002008-06-23T15:33:00.000-07:00CnJ lots of good information there.Like you, I fin...CnJ lots of good information there.<BR/><BR/>Like you, I find most of the stallions I've handled to be more emotionally complex, more sensitive, and more timid, beneath the huff and puff and bluster, than most of the mares and geldings. To me that means they need MORE calm, trustworthy leadership and LESS (NO) bullying or intimidation.<BR/><BR/>A couple of points in semi-rebuttal:<BR/><BR/>Special halter in my barn does not equal a free pass to be an ass -- it means now and now only you have permission to think about breeding a mare. My stallions are 100% in control from the moment they leave the stall until they return. They mount on command, they get down on command, and they are "with" me all the time or we fix it first before the breeding proceeds.<BR/><BR/>I do use breeding hobbles (although you're right -- they create yet one more possiblity for a wreck) because I do everything by myself. Not an ideal situation by any means, but it's what I have. If I can remove a large variable by adding a smaller one, it increases the odds of getting things done as safely as possible. If the mare is "anchored" I can focus on handling the stallion, and get him and myself out of the way if she gets squirrely. I know better than to think the hobbles will keep her from kicking if she's determined to get it done, but at least they may slow her down enough to get us safely out of the way.<BR/> I have one stallion who hangs on to the neck strap of the hobbles to steady himself while mounted. Although he's experienced and very quiet, he feels insecure without his "handle".<BR/><BR/>I know people who are advocates of the belly kick, but I hate it and am much more in favor of making the horse move its feet until it figures out that compliance = peace. It takes more time and emotional self control, but engaging in a contest of blows with something that outweighs one by a factor of 10 does not seem like a high-probability undertaking.<BR/><BR/>Just as an aside -- have you ever taught a stallion to collect w/"four on the floor" -- if so, what did you think vs. using a dummy in terms of manageing the stallion and increasing/reducing risk?ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01762077847614621317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-5111877158701926362008-06-23T15:29:00.000-07:002008-06-23T15:29:00.000-07:00Oh, I do want to respond to this:>>Your other youn...Oh, I do want to respond to this:<BR/><BR/>>>Your other young horses (that you say you raised from birth) don't even know how to pick up their feet. <<<BR/><BR/>Actually, I've posted before that he was fine as a weanling (by the way, "horse," singular. I have no other young horses). He was handled constantly and picked up his feet fine. He got bratty about it over the winter - I assume this is related to rapid growth and having more trouble balancing due to his size. He is over 15 hands at 15 months so he has grown quickly. His brattiness has not been due to a lack of handling, it is simply a phase he seems to be going through, and I am paying someone to resolve it because I have a bad back. Make sense?verylargecolthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18035418539530230889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-65205893772121757852008-06-23T15:26:00.000-07:002008-06-23T15:26:00.000-07:00My question here would be, what constitutes an int...My question here would be, what constitutes an intimidation tactic. When a crabby old broodmare snarls at me and I step at her and growl, isn't that an intimidation tactic? Let me tell you, it works.<BR/><BR/>At the risk of sounding like Pat Parelli, I <I>do</I> believe the horse needs to know you are the alpha in the herd...I just don't think Pat's tactics make that happen.<BR/><BR/>What is unacceptable intimidation? (This is almost a new topic) I think physical punishments like a slap with the hand on the neck or shoulder are just fine, and that kicking back is appropriate when a horse kicks at you (because that's an extreme act and needs to be shut down ASAP), and that smacking a horse who won't load in the ass is fine, too. I don't think it's okay to snap the crap out of a horse's nose with a chain, or to ever hit in the face (excepting the "oops your nose ran into my fist when you came around to nip" move), or to whip in anger or to break the skin with a whip or spurs. <BR/><BR/>I've never seen a horse get mad over consistently applied, not extreme, physical punishment. I have only seen inconsistent, emotion-filled, frustrated, angry punishment result in problems. To me one of the most annoying things to watch is the person running their horse backwards around the show grounds, snap-snap-snapping on the chain lead. That teaches nothing. I have no idea what the horse is being punished for, and normally the horse has no clue either. Haven't we all seen that a million times? Or - here's my favorite - the person comes out of the show ring where they did not place, and snaps the horse in the mouth a few times for good measure. WTF. Do you really think the horse understands he was a bad horsey ten minutes ago when he blew the lead in front of the judge? <BR/><BR/>This is always a hot topic. There's the entire range from the "no spanking" crowd all the way to abuse, and few horsepeople can agree 100% on what is okay and what isn't, in the middle.verylargecolthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18035418539530230889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-65226828000102756142008-06-23T14:58:00.000-07:002008-06-23T14:58:00.000-07:00CutNJump said "All horses will get tired of any in...CutNJump said "All horses will get tired of any intimidation tactics and BLOW someday. Some horses internalize their feelings and this may come in the form of a major impaction colic resulting in surgery. Stallions tend to 'pout' when corrected. It can build and build until they blow. It will be ugly when they do." <BR/><BR/>What can we do to avoid having this happen?Redsmomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03473393390441394419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8476030038561997950.post-23669024130980652652008-06-23T14:55:00.000-07:002008-06-23T14:55:00.000-07:00Cutnjump - I like what you did there... the advic...Cutnjump - I like what you did there... the advice offered by Horsesense was essentially sound advice, it was just rather abruptly phrased in attack mode/bluntness. I still think Horsesense is someone with an agenda, but you got some good out of what was said anyway.Redsmomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03473393390441394419noreply@blogger.com